RX18_Navin Goyal MD Co-Founder and CEO of LOUD Capital: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

RX18_Navin Goyal MD Co-Founder and CEO of LOUD Capital: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

John Shufeldt:
Hello everybody and welcome to another edition of Entrepreneur Rx, where we help health care professionals own their future.

John Shufeldt:
Hey, there, welcome back to Entrepreneur Rx. This week, we're really happy to welcome Dr. Navin Goyal. He serves as CEO of LOUD Capital, and he's really driving the vision of how entrepreneurship, education, and investment can positively impact people, business, and society and just, and just honestly, I had the chance to chat with Navin a little bit before he started, and I want to be him when I grow up. And so it seems a lot younger than I am. I'm probably screwed. But anyway, Navin, welcome to the podcast.

Navin Goyal:
Thank you so much, John. I appreciate what you do, what you discuss, what you've been writing about, so I'm excited to have this conversation.

John Shufeldt:
All right, so just by way of background, because I think people are going to hear your story and say, that's kind of badass. Let me figure out how I can do it. How did you go from, so first talk about your medical background, medical education, kind of all the usual stuff.

Navin Goyal:
Yeah, so I wanted to be a physician all my life, ended up going to undergraduate at the Ohio State University here in Columbus, where I reside right now. I went to medical school at University of Cincinnati, and then I did anesthesiology at the University of Chicago for four years, I ended up not doing a fellowship, which was counter to what my program director and many others were telling me to do, and got a private practice job at a large hospital system here in Columbus.

John Shufeldt:
Very good, so you did that and you mentioned earlier that you did some angel investing, was that right out of residency?

Navin Goyal:
Oh no. It took me a while to catch up on expenses, use my time wisely after passing the final board, and getting used to having some headspace. And so then I started reading and learned about business and entrepreneurship, reading the business section of the Wall Street Journal, getting inspired, and then asking myself, why can't I have a piece of those companies that I'm hearing about that are going public? Or a brand that I'm hearing about and I heard there were a round of early investors. So a few years into my private practice, I started catching up on some extra capital, and then I started investing as an angel.

John Shufeldt:
Were you pretty successful out of the gate with that? Did you have some decent exits?

Navin Goyal:
No, absolutely not. I threw money at a few things. They puttered out, and the thing about angel investing, right, it sometimes can take a while, so you can be excited for a while, and think things are going great and then three years later, they're like, oh, we're shutting down. That's what happened, but what's interesting is it didn't turn me off because I always knew that was the risk. But I learned, hey, what would I have done differently? And I mean, philosophically, that's really it, right? It's learning about it and not turning you off because there is an opportunity, and so what would I do differently? And that's what I've been doing. I've just shifted. I've gone, obviously, this is my life now, but yeah, I just continue to angel invest even to this day.

John Shufeldt:
And so, OK, so back up on the angel investing, because this will strike people, when you look back on it, did you back the wrong idea? The wrong entrepreneur? Was it the wrong timing? Wrong execution? Could you just summarize in anything?

Navin Goyal:
Yeah, of course. I think when I look back at it, I invested in particular early-stage companies at the time. I didn't know what obstacles were ahead of them. And by the way, knowing what I know now, there are a zillion obstacles in front of you and who is around them, whether it's the founding team, whether it's mentors, whether it's other investors, or whether it's you as an investor who's going to help knock down those obstacles. And the investments I made were in either a solo founder or a group of founders that didn't have an established great network or mentors around them, or they were, perhaps, had a personality where they weren't going to drive to get those mentors. So I look for those things that the network, the team itself, their capabilities on handling the obstacles that were come and my mindset shift is, actually back then, I didn't even know that there was all these obstacles ahead of them. So I think that's one of the things I've learned. I know that's kind of a broad answer, but that's kind of how I look at an investment.

John Shufeldt:
Now, you know, I always talk about this, but it's of, like part of it is simply resilience. It's basically working through the obstacles or turning the obstacles into advantages.

Navin Goyal:
Yeah, absolutely. And those industries I invested in, were, are valid. They're validated. There's other companies that are doing similar or different things in that industry, and they're doing well. So I don't think it was a bad idea. I think there's a lot of great ideas, but the idea is just the start. It's a seed. There's so much more that needs to grow from it and there's factors that you can control.

John Shufeldt:
Exactly. You know, in the book that I wrote, we're going to talk about your book, but it's, you know, I always say ideas are easy. I mean, everybody has ideas. And going from idea to execution to exit is a long, arduous, obstacle-filled path.

Navin Goyal:
Yes, totally agree.

John Shufeldt:
Ok, so you grew up always wanting to be a physician? That was my boat as well. When did you all of a sudden said wow, there's this entrepreneurial world out there that I'd like to explore, was it later?

Navin Goyal:
Yeah, it was later, I absolutely pulled my head down, I did not even know anything about really business or entrepreneurship. I was so focused on becoming a doctor and once I was one, I was like, this is good, I'm good. And it was that period where I started reading about entrepreneurship and articles and different things in practice. And then when I started angel investing, which you have skin in the game now, you care more, I started learning more, I had an opportunity to start a company called SmileMD in 2014. So this is several years into practice, being an anesthesiologist, I knew the anesthesia part, but I didn't know the business part. But there is a few dentists that approached myself and my co-founders of SmileMD and be about starting to do anesthesia for the patients that they see at their practice. So we saw the opportunity together, we encouraged each other and we moved forward on this idea. We had no clue how to do marketing, legal, even a financial model like how, what do we charge and how do we even collect the money? And obviously, the whole legal aspect of doing patient care in this country is not easy. So we learned by doing and that is something I encourage people to do, just move forward on something. There's an idea you're never going to feel amazingly prepared. And I think our world of physicians, we are specialized, we've studied so hard, and now we feel perhaps that you need to study and learn that hard for other things to move forward. And I think it's completely opposite. You just need to be comfortable not knowing move forward, you have a good intention, you think about things and then you figure things out. I mean, I think that's the one thing I love to tell people.

John Shufeldt:
Yeah, it's the comfort level with some ambiguity or imperfect information. I mean, for me, emergency medicine is, you know, relatively quick decisions with imperfect information. Do you think anesthesia plays into that as well? I mean, certainly trauma anesthesia does, but do you think that mindset, the anesthesiologist mindset, lends itself to entrepreneurism?

Navin Goyal:
I do. I mean, in fact, you know, globally, I do see a lot of anesthesiologists doing other things outside of medicine. I wonder if that also has to do with more of a shift work mentality where when you're not at work, you're not getting calls from patients or you're thinking about necessarily patient care. So perhaps you have more mental space to do other things, or it's still considered, I believe, a lifestyle career compared to others. So those are a couple of things that I've noticed. I mean, obviously, I can only speak to myself, but I have seen a lot of other anesthesiologists do other things and that might be conducive to it.

John Shufeldt:
Yeah, I agree, where I see it as, I mean, there's a lot of neurosurgeons who are entrepreneurs, and that's certainly not a lifestyle career, but the lifestyle practices, EM, radiology, anesthesia, you know, kind of the shift work sort of lends itself to it.

Navin Goyal:
What's the neurosurgeon observation, by the way? I mean.

John Shufeldt:
Yeah, I work in a place where there's a lot of neurosurgeons and those men and women are always dropping these entrepreneurial ideas and patenting different things they use in their practice. And I'm amazed at how much they do with how little time it appears that they have.

Navin Goyal:
Huh, you have a hypothesis on that? That's really interesting.

John Shufeldt:
No, they're all really smart. That's my hypothesis.

Navin Goyal:
Yeah. Ok, interesting.

John Shufeldt:
So, so what happens with SmileMD, so you started, is going forward and then you make this huge leap, at least in my mind, to start a new venture capital, which is, like I want to be you. So how was that? How did that leap of faith come about?

Navin Goyal:
Yeah. So as we're, and this is back in 2014, for the next several months, we're learning a lot. We plug ourselves in the entrepreneurial community in Columbus here, which again was very, is still is, very growing and energetic community. So I ended up meeting a lot of other entrepreneurs who were doing incredible things. I was a kid in a candy store suddenly, by the way, I was learning for SmileMD and then I was like, wait, what are you doing? Holy, you know, this is crazy! What did you used to do? You used to work over here, and then you left your job to pursue this greater purpose that you feel or this passion that you know there's something there, number one was inspiring to me, number two, I got to know them personally, which was very relatable. These aren't people who are just, you know, so crazy, super smart or so crazy different, than you can't relate to them. So one thing that commonly they said was, but we need funding. We have this, we need to build this tech, but we need funding. And it's really hard to get funding or I've been having trouble getting anyone to invest in me. So me being an angel investor, we were fortunate enough to self-fund SmileMD as it was in the, in its infancy. However, I said, wow, well, I mean, I don't have any more money to invest, but I think there will be other people I know who would be interested in this. And of course, I was also, you know, I'm, I'm a talkative person and I'm really passionate about entrepreneurship. I would constantly talk about in the hospital about investments, I would talk about the SmileMD journey and wow, we're building something that's really cool. And so people kind of looked at me as a resource or a, quote-unquote, business person, and they said any time you see these kind of deals and, you know, I would be interested. So that's when kind of the light bulb came on is like, you know, why don't we just start a fund? And I say we because my co-founder of LOUD Capital is his name is Darshan. He was an entrepreneur on the club's community, doing it for a long time, and he was a little frustrated because there wasn't a lot of people raising capital to fund the great entrepreneurs he was working with. So me and him kind of just started talking. I was surprised that it was that hard to find capital again, being naïve and new to the community. But I said, I have a lot of physicians around me, people who are interested but really busy to potentially invest in things like this. So we started a fund and at the time I had to look up like, what is really a fund? What does that mean? So learned about it, read about it, spoke to some attorneys on it and we created a fund. And that fund had about, it was like a small angel fund, but it was about 10 investors, many of whom I knew at the hospital. And then we invested, ended up investing in seven companies from that fund back in 2015. And so that was originally the, to basically help the entrepreneurs because they were the great people, I wanted to see them funded. And then the investor side, which were a lot of my circle, were just saying, gosh, how do I get involved? How do I get a piece of this? I really want to put money towards something, and we became connectors. But one thing that happened, I'll tell you, is after we made the investments, the entrepreneur is number one, were extremely grateful. They said it was so hard to find funding, believing in us, I will not let you down, I'm going to work my tail off. Oh, and by the way, what do you think about this? So then we became like, you know, sound boards and just trusted resources to help them navigate some of these obstacles. And you know, who am I at the time? Again, I'm a physician. I'm just starting SmileMD and I'm just learning. But guess what? I'm a relatively intelligent person. I'm hardworking. I'm very interested in entrepreneurship that is helpful to people, right? If I'm navigating a new journey with my newly funded company, we need each other just to knock off ideas and just say, is this good or is this bad? What should I do with this money? What's your experience with this? And that's how it started, and it became so much more in, from my standpoint, I was very excited and it just had this level of fulfillment that I did not expect. I thought it was more opportunistic. Hey, I'm going to make some money. This makes sense. I'm making both sides happy, but it became so much more.

John Shufeldt:
That is really cool. Now, so it sounds like you're doing early stage, seed rounds series A?

Navin Goyal:
Yeah. So we were originally doing very early stage and seed round, I would say. Now we're doing seed round, we're doing series A, we're even leading rounds now, but we don't do only health care. And that's, that's actually my favorite question because especially physicians and people on the health care feel like, oh, so you're doing health care? No, actually, we're industry agnostic. We do a lot of different things. We do education technology, we do manufacturing, we do a lot of different things. And I'll tell you the next question is going to be, well... How do you know about those fields? Number one, I've learned a lot about them. I'm hopefully humble enough to know that I don't know enough. So let me get people around me, whether it's mentors, whether it's people I know who are really working and expert in this field, and let me pull you in and see what your thoughts are. Like we've done, we've had cybersecurity pitches where I don't know enough and I still don't and I still think it's very complex, but I know there's something there, I know there's value there. And so I've pulled a couple of people who've run companies into our pitches. They give some immediate feedback to say, yeah, you know what? This is actually a huge long road, and so it's about surrounding yourself with that talent and even plugging in mentors when you do invest and LOUD Capital, the name came from being loud and active investors, there's plenty of silent investors, there's plenty of quote-unquote silent money, but there's not enough active mentorship money, and that's where LOUD Capital wants to be different. So we've even invested in a company where we took one of our mentors who was helping facilitate it, and he's now on the board of that company. And it's like, it's a win-win because you're not just helping the entrepreneur and you believe in them, right? From an investor side, you're also mitigating risk, right, the whole thing is to make money, but my thing is if you can drive a purpose and then profit around that from the business model, then you have a win-win situation.

John Shufeldt:
Wow. How many funds have you done now?

Navin Goyal:
So we're on our fourth venture capital fund, but early on we realized that not everyone, number one knows about venture, so I do a lot of education and talking on it. Why? Why venture's is exciting, why I consider it an asset like many other things. But we realized that there was other opportunities that we should be providing for investors. Being in the Midwest, back in, specially 2015-2016, people were just scratching the surface on what angel investing and venture capital was because you never had a younger ecosystem here in the Midwest, compared to the West, in the East, and so we started offering something called merchant cash advance, or now it's known as revenue financing, so, you know.

John Shufeldt:
It's a factoring.

Navin Goyal:
Yep, well, it's technically not factoring, but it's in that class, basically. And so from an investor standpoint, hey, I have capital and I want to make this work at a higher rate than my banks giving me, but I don't want to take the risk of investing in an early stage company. So we started that back in the day, and that's a very active part of our business. So we have companies from across the country and we have a lot of investors who put in money. But eventually, as they start learning about alternative investments and basically, you know, because I look at the public markets as it's out there, people know about it, people know the stock market. But a lot of people don't realize how much risk they're taking with the public markets or if it's lost, it's somehow acceptable because it's a public thing. But the private market is obviously a spectrum. And so how do you curate a brand or curate vehicles that are in the public markets that also feel like, hey, there's a lot of transparency and diligence that have been done, these are my risks, and this is what my goals are, and that's kind of what we're trying to curate here is we don't want this random email to come and say, hey, you want to get this deal? It's the next big thing. We're saying, hey, we've really done a lot of diligence, our whole team and we have different locations now, we're in, our headquarter's in Columbus, we have an office in Chicago, we have an office in Raleigh, and we probably have one or two opening up soon. And that's a whole another story of organic growth. We don't, we're not like putting a dart in a city and saying, let's end up there. It's just great people are popping up and really like our mission. So we, now our network of experienced people and different communities are really helping our philosophy of being loud and active. So when we invest in a company, we now have all these obstacles being torn down that I was telling you, we now anticipate. And so that helps investors understand why we're trying to mitigate as much risk as we can.

John Shufeldt:
Why do you think it's important that physicians get involved in? This is either venture, is either LPs, limited partners, or is either entrepreneurs? Well, what do you think that does to the physician ecosystem?

Navin Goyal:
Yeah, I'm going to tell you two things. Number one, I think our medical degree and what we utilize it for is very limited. It's limited in a system of clinical care and a system that's not built by us or built for us. And so our community is very frustrated. But you earn that MD ordeal or you've earned your professional degree, are you utilizing it to the best you can? And what I can tell you, being out here now in the venture space and the entrepreneurial space is you can use it very broadly. I am impacting and influencing people in a very positive manner. It's not in a setting, a clinical setting, but it's in a very different setting. I'm helping people. And so I think that's a physician opportunity, number one, to utilize their degree much broader. Number two, I think, when I look at a hardworking physician that's been working for twenty-five years and they're doing the same thing, even if they're fulfilled and enjoy it, are they having their money also create wealth for them? Or are they going to need to work for the salary or however they're getting compensated? And that foundation like to me, is just creating something today that's going to multiply tomorrow, and that's time, and that's money. And that's what I really get passionate about to teach physicians because I, I... Knowing what I know now when I see a physician who's been working for 30 years and they're still working their tail off and they say five more years, I'm almost there. I've been I've been saving for retirement. That's great. I mean, that's fine. That's a fulfilling job. But could they have gotten there quicker or broader and perhaps could have given them some time to do other things instead of think of this as it's a clock to end their, their work first and then enjoying later on. So it's just that kind of mindset that's shifted for myself.

John Shufeldt:
Yeah, it's funny. For whatever reason, I don't recall why, but I realize it probably has ... The same. Unless we're there, we're not making money. I needed to find a way to make money, but I wasn't in the ED. So, you know, for a long time, like a lot of people I work, you know, I have a couple of different companies, but I worked a lot of ED shifts.

Navin Goyal:
Yeah.

John Shufeldt:
Probably saturated a month, which is, which is good. I still get to do cool stuff and make a difference individually, but I have partners and friends who are literally, as you said, just grinding it out day after day to retirement and that I always think, that's great. But at some point going to be like, well, crap, now I'm too old to do anything I should have been doing the whole way.

Navin Goyal:
That's exactly right. And even if things happen right, something happens in your family, et cetera. I've heard my partner say, well, I have to go to work. I have to. You know, it's almost like you work your tail off to become this, but now you're working your tail off to end. And it's like when? When is that break? And I'll tell you, in a corporate world or in another ladder outside of the business community, you're climbing the ladder. So eventually, let's say you're potentially managing more than you're doing, your skill set doesn't need to be used every single day, and so you have the benefit of using your brain and experience to still move forward, not necessarily the skills, immediate skill sets or your hands, and physicians don't have that. At least they're not set up to use that. That's how I see it. I do not want people to just leave the hospital and there's no clinical care. I just want physicians, number one, I mean, physicians need to be fulfilled and they need to be not burned out, right? That's been accelerated over the last couple of years. So I'm really worried about our field and I'm worried about our hospitals being empty. So how do you sustain our field of medicine? And my thought process is start thinking a little broader, start giving more options for fulfillment and then also start thinking about adding financial savviness and investment education so we can kind of propel ourselves forward like many others are doing.

John Shufeldt:
Yeah, it's funny how many friends I have who think they're pigeonholed like, oh my god, I can only do one thing. I'm like, no, you're a physician, you are ,you have resilience and grit and intelligence, and if you got this far, you can get anywhere you want to go just with, like you said, you just have to realize I've got to put some work in and some effort, but I can definitely get there. So yeah, I agree. So what advice do you have for physicians in, you know, soon to be physicians in medical school or residence, given that what you know?

Navin Goyal:
Yeah. In fact, I gave a talk to a medical school yesterday, and I, I actually talk to a lot of medical students because I feel like that is a really good time to start talking about these concepts. Number one, you will now be fulfilled by this career only, like.

John Shufeldt:
I say the same thing. It looks like someone shot their puppy when I say it.

Navin Goyal:
Yeah, that is a fact. I absolutely thought that was the end all, be all. That's not a, that's not bad news. That's just like, be aware. So number one, having that awareness. And what does that do? That starts preparing yourself with different skills. So when that happens, not if, but when it's not this big, like, holy crap, I'm 15 years in, I'm not feeling like this is my job, even though I now am paid off debt and I'm earning good money and this credible person in society, why am I feeling this way? And so you will feel that way. And in fact, I actually think human nature, many professionals feel that way. It's just, I think physicians are more surprised than others because we were never told that. So now that you know this truth, what do you do? Start learning skill sets again. Talk why you would invest, learn about basic finance. What a dollar paid on a cup of coffee, well, now it's like five dollars paid on a cup of coffee, what that can do for you if you were to put it somewhere else. These are the things that I really never heard about, still, I don't think they really talk about as much. And so I'm trying to formalize a process. There's a, there's a platform we have coming out in a month called Beyond Physician, which is about learning skill sets, courses, doing non-clinical jobs and the non-clinical jobs is not just to earn money because I do think that's important, but even bigger where I get excited. It's using different parts of your brain and justifying and validating to yourself that you can do other things. And to me, that becomes a form of empowerment so you can just feel better about yourself. And that's what we need. We just need to feel better about ourselves, whatever stage you're in, especially after the last couple of years.

John Shufeldt:
Totally. I would always say, you know, emergency medicine is recession-proof, and it probably is, but it wasn't COVID-proof. I mean there are so many EM physicians now un or underemployed, and I think they all had this, you know, quote-unquote come to Jesus moment, where like, holy crap, this is not the end all and be all. And I better figure out something else to do because I think we were all just we went all down this path. And like you said at the end of the day, we're physicians, is what we do for the rest of our life. And there's not a lot of other professions. I mean, probably dentists and veterinarians, but everybody else can pivot and do all sorts of things. But we're like grinding it out. And I do think, at least for me, being an entrepreneur has really helped prevent this burnout or moral injury because I get to do all sorts of other stuff. So when I go to the ED and, you know, sometimes I want to put a gun in my mouth, but most days .... then I'm like, I love this shit. I mean.

Navin Goyal:
Yeah.

John Shufeldt:
... somebody's airway, you know, for you, it's probably boring. But for me, 30 years later, I still love paralyzing people in managing their airway. And so I still get a kick out of that. But I can see if you did it, grind 15 days a month, you just be, you know, over it.

Navin Goyal:
Yeah. And I actually thought I was going to continue to do a shift here and there for anesthesia, but I have not done it. And I'll tell you, I don't miss it. I don't know why. It was a great practice. It was a, it's a great field. It's, but I think now I look at my time and the more time I can put it into the two ventures I co-founded, which I'm so passionate about and by the way, SmileMD to this day, you know, we're in three different states at the moment and we're looking at others. We've taken care of over twelve, thirteen thousand patients. So it's something I co-founded with now a team of over 60 people employed here in Columbus. It's like, wow, we're putting energy and time into something that is helping a lot of people out there, that my hospital system I used to work for was not touching. So just think about that for a second. So my mindset starts changing where if I go to work tomorrow and I do anesthesia and I see three or four patients, that's great, by the way, that's fulfilling to many. For me, I would say, should I have spent the day building what I've been doing to affect more patients in different cities and states that we weren't touching? That's kind of how I think. I know that's a little bit unique, but that's actually what at least I justify to myself of not missing my clinical job.

John Shufeldt:
Well, I'm smiling because I, little bit in my mind thinks the same way. It's like, this is really cool helping this one patient, it'd be really cool to help a lot of patients or do, impact the community. And so that's yeah, I get excited about the same thing. So.

Navin Goyal:
Yeah, yesterday, yesterday I spoke to medical students and I think there was thirty-five, forty on the talk and then they were recording or sending it out. And so I spent an hour and then maybe a half hour kind of answering questions, et cetera. That was incredible and what I've been through to be able to share. I'm really hoping there's a handful of students, which I got some feedback, with, wow, that was really like eye opening for me. Like, I know what I need to do or I feel like I can go this direction and feel more confident. Like, to me, that's like, wow, I just talked and influenced and impacted potentially gave some wisdom to a lot of people that I would not have been able to do.

John Shufeldt:
Yeah, I'm sure you saw, even if it wasn't in person?

Navin Goyal:
It was actually a virtual yesterday.

John Shufeldt:
But I'm sure you saw on camera some light bulbs going off in people's eyes. I love that. I love to see that.

Navin Goyal:
Every time I'm telling you and we also live in a world where entrepreneurship, venture capital is a very sexy thing. And so what do you do with the sexy thing? There might be some people who just want to market the crap and make a ton of money. I actually think it's an opportunity for us, especially in the physician community, to say yes, it's sexy, but how can we make it like impactful, like take sexy and impactful? And then that's where I think the medical degree comes in, right? We're actually doing good for people in for profit businesses like that's kind of the nerdy way to think about it.

John Shufeldt:
Yeah, it's the balance of both of those. Ok, so switching subjects, I know you have a book coming out and as a frustrated author myself, what are you crazy? These are, you know, writing the book as you find out as of this, it's tough.

Navin Goyal:
It's tough. So yeah, it's called Physician Underdog, and the subtitle is Leveraging the Underdog Mentality to Move Forward.

John Shufeldt:
I love that.

Navin Goyal:
Thank you. And, you know, I didn't realize that becoming a physician, I would be in an underdog position. But as anyone listening out there or watching out there, that's what you feel. And that's actually normal. And that's OK. You actually still have all these capabilities, they're just kind of untapped. And so I write a lot about my mindset shift why I went to medicine, what changed in my mind, why I'm here and then basically what you can do when you're out there. And I actually think it applies to a lot of people and professionals. I think physicians for sure will definitely grasp it as that makes total sense. But it's just discussing that. And I hopefully, I mean, I really hope it's just add some value or some optimism or some inspiration to drive you to take some small steps forward. But it's it's on a website PhysicianUnderdog.com. It releases early October, it'll be on Amazon. And there's other resources like people ask me, what books have I read to learn about entrepreneurship or venture? I have a resource list on there. I have a PDF that 10 medical students or 10 questions that medical students have asked me, and I kind of answer it in a way that you should know. I think it would it be helpful to anyone. So there's other things out there.

John Shufeldt:
That's very good. Ok, so PhysicianUnderdog.com, we'll have it in the show notes and a link to your website and a link to your book because I'll be the first one to order it, ... I love the title. It's really a really cool book.

Navin Goyal:
Well, thank you.

John Shufeldt:
This will be awesome. Well, Navin, thank you. This has been phenomenal, and you and I ... lifelong friends whether you want to be lifelong friends or not. Thanks for being honest. I really appreciate. I think people get a lot out of this.

Navin Goyal:
Well, thank you. I appreciate it for you for doing what you do. I really think having these discussions and bringing different people on, I think is very helpful for the community and for people who don't even know to think this way.

John Shufeldt:
Thank you.

John Shufeldt:
Thanks for listening to another great edition of Entrepreneur Rx. To find out how to start a business and help secure your future, go to JohnShufeldtMD.com. Thanks for listening.

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Sonix has many features that you'd love including automated translation, transcribe multiple languages, secure transcription and file storage, share transcripts, and easily transcribe your Zoom meetings. Try Sonix for free today.